Heroes skill order. Builds format. EotN cartography - Guild Wars Forums

Drevin Morgan · Jun 12, 2011, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Hello everyone. This is my first post on the Guru, and I hope it to be first of many, and to soon be able to actually give replies to other peoples' questions.

I've just finished playing through Prophecies normal mode using only henchmen. Now I unlocked EotN for the first time (yes, I sure took my time to do so, even though I could've done it a month ago), and I am already a bit confused, mostly because of the heroes I've unlocked and I'm trying to use for the first time. I started researching them here on the Guru and on the Wiki, but through all the wealth of information I might have missed the answers to my following questions, so I apologize if they are answered somewhere. Also, English is not my native language, so reading lots of walls of text is not that easy.

Anyway...

1. When creating a skills order on the skill bar for the heroes, does it matter the order in which they are placed, or not? I remember reading on the Doppelganger wiki page that it prioritizes the skills from left to right, so I'm not sure if this is the case for Hero AI.

2. I didn't really bother with builds until now, and now when I'm looking over posted builds, they seem to follow a rule of how they are being written (syntax ?!). Is it because they can be copied and pasted in game, or something?

3. After hugging all the walls in Prophecies and getting my Grandmaster Cartographer title, now I see that EotN doesn't have a similar title. Is it worth it for completeness' sake to hug the walls in EoTN too, or the whole maps will be unfogged just by running relatively close to the borders? I like my maps to be 100% unfogged, so even if there is no title involved I'd like to have that. So is it worth the extra trouble?

Thank you all in advance for the answers.

PS: If anyone wants to post small personal advices regarding heroes, it will be appreciated.

Jeree95 · Jun 12, 2011, 08:33 AM // 08:33

I'm not sure about the Hero AI, but the builds can be copied by using Templates. Also, Imo it's enough to run relatively close to the walls, as that will uncover the fog.

bsoltan · Jun 12, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38

1. No it doesn't matter what order you put the skills. Most people will just build the bar the same way you would if you were playing it yourself.

2. Yes, there is a Skill Template Format which is a code that is used by the game to store a build. This can be saved/copied and used to transfer builds.
In the Skills and Attributes window (K by default), the little disk icon at the top will allow you to save/load/view a template.
--
If you're talking about any other formatting then this is often used to display a build on a forum which requires specific plugins, most of these are no longer in use.

3. Eye of the North has a Master of the North title, which as well as cartographer, incorporates vanquishing, dungeons and story completion.

I'd recommend having a read of the Hero & AI Subforum if you require specific hero related advise.

Quaker · Jun 12, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drevin Morgan

1. When creating a skills order on the skill bar for the heroes, does it matter the order in which they are placed, or not?

It's often been said that Heroes will use skills from left to right, but it doesn't appear to be true. The closest may be that, if there is a choice between equal skills, the Hero AI will choose from left to right, but even that is not proven.

Quote:

2. I didn't really bother with builds until now, and now when I'm looking over posted builds, they seem to follow a rule of how they are being written (syntax ?!). Is it because they can be copied and pasted in game, or something?

No, I think there's just a sort of generalized syntax that people use. Builds can be copied and pasted, but it doesn't depend upon any particular format for a build. For example, a rez skill doesn't need to be in a particular slot.

Quote:

3. After hugging all the walls in Prophecies and getting my Grandmaster Cartographer title, now I see that EotN doesn't have a similar title.

EotN has the Master of the North title which involves a number of things including Cartography.

Quote:

If anyone wants to post small personal advices regarding heroes, it will be appreciated.

To be most effective, Heroes need to be fully equipped. That is, fully decked out with appropriate Runes/Insignias, builds, and weapons that fit the build. Too many people try to run Heroes with just the crap they come with and/or just give them any old crap they have lying around, and then complain that Heroes 'suck'.

shanaya · Jun 12, 2011, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drevin Morgan

3. After hugging all the walls in Prophecies and getting my Grandmaster Cartographer title, now I see that EotN doesn't have a similar title. Is it worth it for completeness' sake to hug the walls in EoTN too, or the whole maps will be unfogged just by running relatively close to the borders? I like my maps to be 100% unfogged, so even if there is no title involved I'd like to have that. So is it worth the extra trouble?

If you wall-scrape/hug all the EoTN areas then this will give you 101 valuable points towards your Master Of The North title. This will mean that you can achieve the 'Legendary Master of the North' title with only 17 out of 18 HM Dungeons completed. So you can miss out a whole nasty HM Dungeon - in my case Slaver's Exile.

Urcscumug · Jun 12, 2011, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

To be most effective, Heroes need to be fully equipped. That is, fully decked out with appropriate Runes/Insignias, builds, and weapons that fit the build. Too many people try to run Heroes with just the crap they come with and/or just give them any old crap they have lying around, and then complain that Heroes 'suck'.

They can be effective without any runes/insignias.

You should indeed give max damage weapons to physicals and 20/20 staves to casters (from collectors or the weapon vendor in Seitung Harbor) -- but other than that it's the build and the group synergy that matters most. Then again I don't throw the blame on them when I fail.

@OP: the hero AI is sort of somewhere between "reliable" and "stupid machine". They do the stuff you'd expect them to, mostly -- use the skills when they make sense -- but they go about it quite literally. Ie. if a skills removes a hex, it will be used when there's a hex to remove, if it's about adjacent foes when there's an adjacent foe, if there's another condition when the condition is met etc. They will try to maintain enchantments for the most time. They will not step on each other's toes (ie. not override the same enchantment or remove the same hex or interrupt the same foe). They have superhuman reactions (great for interrupts). To some extent, calling targets will prioritize and focus their attention.

And that's about it -- outside of these general rules they mash buttons randomly. This primarily means they won't do any combination that requires a certain order of skills -- other than by mistake.

So forget about Dervish teardowns or Assassin chain of attacks.

Quaker · Jun 12, 2011, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

They can be effective without any runes/insignias.

Anyone, human or Hero can be effective without Runes and Insignias, but I wouldn't recommend it. A warrior can be effective without any mods on his sword, but would you do that on purpose?

Doven · Jun 13, 2011, 12:04 AM // 00:04

heyo.. wb to gw! hope your having a good time of it.

ima chime abit about heroes.

3 things i think very important based on experience.

1. READ the hero AI info on wiki. some super important stuff there that will help you out quite a bit. especially the "known" skills that typically heroe's seem to not work correctly or work at all. with that.. always investigate the discussion area of skills your interested in using with your heroes, as there can be some valuable information pertaining to hero use. there also could be absolutely nothing and youll have to experiment

2. KISS! keep it simple stupid. the ONLY skills that heroes use somewhat efficiently that rely on timed response are interrupts and only because they see it coming through code.. (cheaters!) lol. But if your trying to work out some elaborate sequence of skill godliness.. forget .. about... it. You will also need to be aware of cost vs recharge for pwr mngmnt if your not using some sort of mes secondary. You'll figure it out. but a good example is your awsomesauce healer spamo blam blam those 10 / r2 mega heals ie "healing breeze", "Jamei's Gaze" ect. or that very rookie prot hero ooping out on "Reversal of Fortune".. lol. Remember.. a decent hero build doesnt necessarily HAVE to have all 8 slots filled with somethin.

3. Normal mode, sure, you can dress your heroes any way you like and probably run nekked through fields of daisey love taps. But when doing HM, I would highly suggest you take the time to deck out your heroes with the appropriate runes, weapons, scrips and upgrades and maybe make sure they are just a weeee bit less in overall health than you are.

And should you choose not to build the "cookie cutter" necro, mes or SoS, fire and forget, off to do my laundry be back ina minute hero thang, and have fun experimenting with your own concepts. practice.... practice... PRACTICE..

cheers!
d

ps. have fun.

Drevin Morgan · Jun 13, 2011, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doven

have fun.

Thank you all for the replies. Unfortunately my fun factor went down a few notches since I unlocked heroes. I see runes and insignias on heroes mostly a cash issue (gave them Survivors/Vitae/Minor Vigor/+1 in 3 attributes), maxed the primary attributes on all 3 heroes and also maxed another attribute on each, but when it comes to actually put some skills in the skills bars, that's when the game suddenly goes into a mind-boggler. For now, I'll just let the initial skills given to the heroes, and try to continua seeing the game and enjoy it.

bsoltan · Jun 13, 2011, 08:25 AM // 08:25

If you're just looking for quick builds that work well you can always check out the PvX wiki at www.gwpvx.com

This will have a list of useful builds, skills, alternative skills, equipment and directions on usage. Very useful if you're just looking for some usable builds.

Unfortunately if you're new to the game then you may not have unlocked a lot of the skills to use on heroes, but it could give you a good priority of which skills to unlock first when given the option or when you are looking to make some new builds.

Good luck!

GODh · Jun 13, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drevin Morgan

Thank you all for the replies. Unfortunately my fun factor went down a few notches since I unlocked heroes. I see runes and insignias on heroes mostly a cash issue (gave them Survivors/Vitae/Minor Vigor/+1 in 3 attributes), maxed the primary attributes on all 3 heroes and also maxed another attribute on each, but when it comes to actually put some skills in the skills bars, that's when the game suddenly goes into a mind-boggler. For now, I'll just let the initial skills given to the heroes, and try to continua seeing the game and enjoy it.

I understand your problem, as making heroes "perfect" can be costly (i equiped over 350 heroes, which costed me between 2 and 3 million

). But good heroes make the game so much easier (= less frustrating).

You can start with the heroes that you are actually going to use... the heroes from EOTN, unlike many heroes in Nightfall, aren't required in certain missions so you can skip a few of them when you think they arent very useful.

Some runes and insignia's are very expensive, but instead of using a superior and a minor rune, you also have an option of using 2x a major run (which is often muuuuuch cheaper and almost as good).

When it comes to weapons then playing EOTN is great as even blue and purple drops can be very good... and Factions (if you have it) has excellent collectors and "cheap" weaponcrafters (5k and materials).

Work on your repuation points (EOTN, and if you have it NF). For every rank you get a hero skillpoint too... you can use them to unlock skills that your heroes can use.

You can set fightngstyle of you heroes via their own window: i NEVER use "fight" as this easily screw up the aggro. I set my fighters to "guard" (that way they listen better) and non-fighting heroes (like healers, etc) to "avoid".

You probably need more and better skills for your heroes. This probably will cost you some money, but once bought a skill can be used by every hero using that class. It is also helpfull if you bought all 2nd professions as this will unlcok a few extra skills, but more importantly: you are able to buy every skill out there (at least the ones that you want to have).

Some cheap ways to earn some extra skills:
* You also can make a pvp-char and do the pvp-turorials and/or play some pvp to earn Balthazar factions, which can be used to unlock extra (elite)skills for your heroes
* Some prophecies quests have skills as a reward
* Hero skills trainers (i already mentioned this)

Urcscumug · Jun 13, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Anyone, human or Hero can be effective without Runes and Insignias, but I wouldn't recommend it. A warrior can be effective without any mods on his sword, but would you do that on purpose?

I'm just saying not to stress out if you don't have them. The mod and rune advice often sounds as if you're toast if you don't have everything just right. And outside of a few select cases it's not like that.

You can do the campaigns with "naked heroes" ie. no runes, no insignia, max weapons with no mods. Of course you should upgrade yourself and the heroes as you go on and it will make things easier, but it's not something to lose sleep over.

Eg. if you're failing hard at some mission or quest, chances are it's about skills, tactics, flagging, pulling etc. rather than about mods and runes. And as the OP says, what use is slapping all the fancy stuff on if you don't have any idea what to put on their bars?

PS. Why even bring hard mode into the discussion? He's a beginner, he's months away from hard mode -- assuming he's even going to give it a try.

Quaker · Jun 13, 2011, 01:43 PM // 13:43

I'm not the one who mentioned Hard Mode.

What I'm saying - to clarify - is, don't be satisfied with half-assed equipped Heroes. Of course, when you first start out and you don't have the equipment for your Heroes, they are going to be less than ideal.
There can be times when it's better to use a henchman rather than a partially set up Hero, but I tend to assume that that is obvious enough for most people to figure out for themselves.
In the case of Heroes you get from Factions, you can basically start taking them with you as soon as you get them because the quests (in Factions) and foes you run into at the time (Factions and Prophecies), are at a level which suits them and they will level up with you.
In the case of EotN, the Heroes are already level 20 and are not required for any quests (if I recall). But they also generally need more setup before they become truly effective.

So, bottom line, I would say - Heroes perform best when properly set up. If you plan to use Heroes, plan on spending the effort, time, and gold to eventually fully set the up. Also, don't try to set up all of your Heroes (at least, not at first) - just concentrate on a few (Monk, MM, etc.) that you know you will use.

Jun 12, 2011, 08:16 AM // 08:16	#1
Drevin Morgan Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2011 Profession: R/	Heroes skill order. Builds format. EotN cartography Hello everyone. This is my first post on the Guru, and I hope it to be first of many, and to soon be able to actually give replies to other peoples' questions. I've just finished playing through Prophecies normal mode using only henchmen. Now I unlocked EotN for the first time (yes, I sure took my time to do so, even though I could've done it a month ago), and I am already a bit confused, mostly because of the heroes I've unlocked and I'm trying to use for the first time. I started researching them here on the Guru and on the Wiki, but through all the wealth of information I might have missed the answers to my following questions, so I apologize if they are answered somewhere. Also, English is not my native language, so reading lots of walls of text is not that easy. Anyway... 1. When creating a skills order on the skill bar for the heroes, does it matter the order in which they are placed, or not? I remember reading on the Doppelganger wiki page that it prioritizes the skills from left to right, so I'm not sure if this is the case for Hero AI. 2. I didn't really bother with builds until now, and now when I'm looking over posted builds, they seem to follow a rule of how they are being written (syntax ?!). Is it because they can be copied and pasted in game, or something? 3. After hugging all the walls in Prophecies and getting my Grandmaster Cartographer title, now I see that EotN doesn't have a similar title. Is it worth it for completeness' sake to hug the walls in EoTN too, or the whole maps will be unfogged just by running relatively close to the borders? I like my maps to be 100% unfogged, so even if there is no title involved I'd like to have that. So is it worth the extra trouble? Thank you all in advance for the answers. PS: If anyone wants to post small personal advices regarding heroes, it will be appreciated.

Jun 12, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38	#3
bsoltan Site Contributor Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Guild: [SoF]	1. No it doesn't matter what order you put the skills. Most people will just build the bar the same way you would if you were playing it yourself. 2. Yes, there is a Skill Template Format which is a code that is used by the game to store a build. This can be saved/copied and used to transfer builds. In the Skills and Attributes window (K by default), the little disk icon at the top will allow you to save/load/view a template. -- If you're talking about any other formatting then this is often used to display a build on a forum which requires specific plugins, most of these are no longer in use. 3. Eye of the North has a Master of the North title, which as well as cartographer, incorporates vanquishing, dungeons and story completion. I'd recommend having a read of the Hero & AI Subforum if you require specific hero related advise. Last edited by bsoltan; Jun 12, 2011 at 08:40 AM // 08:40..

Jun 13, 2011, 01:43 PM // 13:43	#13
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	I'm not the one who mentioned Hard Mode. What I'm saying - to clarify - is, don't be satisfied with half-assed equipped Heroes. Of course, when you first start out and you don't have the equipment for your Heroes, they are going to be less than ideal. There can be times when it's better to use a henchman rather than a partially set up Hero, but I tend to assume that that is obvious enough for most people to figure out for themselves. In the case of Heroes you get from Factions, you can basically start taking them with you as soon as you get them because the quests (in Factions) and foes you run into at the time (Factions and Prophecies), are at a level which suits them and they will level up with you. In the case of EotN, the Heroes are already level 20 and are not required for any quests (if I recall). But they also generally need more setup before they become truly effective. So, bottom line, I would say - Heroes perform best when properly set up. If you plan to use Heroes, plan on spending the effort, time, and gold to eventually fully set the up. Also, don't try to set up all of your Heroes (at least, not at first) - just concentrate on a few (Monk, MM, etc.) that you know you will use. Last edited by Quaker; Jun 13, 2011 at 01:47 PM // 13:47..

Jun 12, 2011, 08:33 AM // 08:33	#2
Jeree95 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Finland Guild: [Hunt] Profession: P/W	I'm not sure about the Hero AI, but the builds can be copied by using Templates. Also, Imo it's enough to run relatively close to the walls, as that will uncover the fog.

Jun 13, 2011, 12:04 AM // 00:04	#8
Doven Ascalonian Squire Join Date: May 2011	heyo.. wb to gw! hope your having a good time of it. ima chime abit about heroes. 3 things i think very important based on experience. 1. READ the hero AI info on wiki. some super important stuff there that will help you out quite a bit. especially the "known" skills that typically heroe's seem to not work correctly or work at all. with that.. always investigate the discussion area of skills your interested in using with your heroes, as there can be some valuable information pertaining to hero use. there also could be absolutely nothing and youll have to experiment 2. KISS! keep it simple stupid. the ONLY skills that heroes use somewhat efficiently that rely on timed response are interrupts and only because they see it coming through code.. (cheaters!) lol. But if your trying to work out some elaborate sequence of skill godliness.. forget .. about... it. You will also need to be aware of cost vs recharge for pwr mngmnt if your not using some sort of mes secondary. You'll figure it out. but a good example is your awsomesauce healer spamo blam blam those 10 / r2 mega heals ie "healing breeze", "Jamei's Gaze" ect. or that very rookie prot hero ooping out on "Reversal of Fortune".. lol. Remember.. a decent hero build doesnt necessarily HAVE to have all 8 slots filled with somethin. 3. Normal mode, sure, you can dress your heroes any way you like and probably run nekked through fields of daisey love taps. But when doing HM, I would highly suggest you take the time to deck out your heroes with the appropriate runes, weapons, scrips and upgrades and maybe make sure they are just a weeee bit less in overall health than you are. And should you choose not to build the "cookie cutter" necro, mes or SoS, fire and forget, off to do my laundry be back ina minute hero thang, and have fun experimenting with your own concepts. practice.... practice... PRACTICE.. cheers! d ps. have fun.

Jun 13, 2011, 08:25 AM // 08:25	#10
bsoltan Site Contributor Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Guild: [SoF]	If you're just looking for quick builds that work well you can always check out the PvX wiki at www.gwpvx.com This will have a list of useful builds, skills, alternative skills, equipment and directions on usage. Very useful if you're just looking for some usable builds. Unfortunately if you're new to the game then you may not have unlocked a lot of the skills to use on heroes, but it could give you a good priority of which skills to unlock first when given the option or when you are looking to make some new builds. Good luck!